Transcript
Welcome back, everyone, to my 2nd podcast with Christina. And Christina, do you maybe want to introduce yourself again? I know. You wear two hats, um, one really focused on customer insights. But I think for this podcast, it would be quite interesting to hear why assertiveness for women and specifically women in tech is so important to you. As part of your introduction, that’d be great. Absolutely. Thank you, Annay. And, um, yes, I currently work in the space of product and customer insights with one of my hats. The other one is very personally important to me, and that is because I have worked ever since I started my career in tech and engineering companies, and I’m a naturally introverted person.
I wouldn’t say um very, very outspoken or um or confident from the start. But I found the additional um challenge of the environment quite difficult early in my career. And I remember once, um, one of my managers when I was finishing up, um, one of my, um, roles, said to me, Your contributions are great. We just wish we would hear your voice more. And at that point, it just clicked to me that I thought, wait a minute, like, I’m holding myself back so much, so much in my career by not doing that.
And there were several other reflection points throughout my career where I thought, I should have taken more risk. Why was I doing this? Why wasn’t I speaking up? So that, um, I now want to help other women do that faster than I did. Um, and that’s why I’ve created, uh, initially a coaching women, then a training programme, and now I’m running workshops as well for networks and corporates. So what I’m really interested when you speak there is, I think we all know that there are some invisible rules of power.
And um so I’m quite curious to hear from you what you think they are, and also this concept of then power isn’t given, it’s taken, but Let’s explore a little bit the invisible rules of power. What are some of the ones you’ve experienced? It’s a really fascinating, um, fascinating topic, and I actually went into a deep dive last year because I was curious what power actually means. So I did a course um by Harvard and learned that power is defined by you having access and controlling access to a resource that other people value.
And that is really fascinating. So basically when you controls that other people value. And because of that, you can influence other people. Um, and there are like different types of resources, so there are, um, obviously the position, and that’s what people mostly think about when they hear power and the kind of more visible rules of power. If you are in a specific title or rank in an organisation, you have budgeting authority, you have power. Yeah. The other types, and that was more eye-opening for me. One was what’s called personal, um, personal derived power, and that is actually skills and knowledge and things that really are unique about you that you bring.
And the second one is relational power, so having connections in your network that others don’t and they rely on. And these two elements I found are very underestimated or undervalued when when I’m speaking to anyone who’s thinking about, OK, who has got power in this specific um relationship or dynamic. And what I found is that by giving firstly visibility to women specifically about, OK, these are the different sources of power and you actually probably have more than you think you have. And even if you realise, OK, that power dynamic here is off, I feel powerless.
I don’t feel confident here, what is it that I can do in that moment? Is the other person even aware of all the other sources? I might not be in the position of authority, but do they know about my skills, my knowledge, my relationships, my network? And if so, like, what is it that I can, uh, sorry, if not, what is it that I can do to show them how do I communicate? It comes back a lot, and that’s why the assertiveness comes in because it comes down a lot to how you communicate about those specific elements.
Well, but I also hear you say, uh, you said it a few times, and even when you had your own realisation, that somehow has to start with you. Someone else can’t make you assertive. Someone else can’t give you the power. You have to take it, and you have to realise that in taking it, that is how you become powerful. Mm. I think the for me, the the biggest realisation was that. Like you said in the start, there are inherent. Fundamentally human um elements in the brain, right, like stereotypes, like the way society is set up, do make it more difficult.
And of course there are a lot of really great initiatives out there that are helping to maybe not reverse but make these differences or make these hurdles slightly less difficult for women. But I personally realised I don’t want to wait for my environment to change. So what can I do? And it’s exactly like you say, like you have to somehow take it into your own hand and understand, uh, OK, how, how can I make this happen? And I think what’s really interesting is what you said there around, we can either wait for the environment to change, and let’s face it, it is changing slowly but surely, in some places more than in others.
But I think what, what I’ve always found is if I have a sense of control, or if I feel more in the driving seat, then I’m willing to be more assert. Somehow that psychologically makes me, willing to cross, you know, cross the boundary or take the leap and be more assertive. Mm. And the, the, the other thing I found really, cause I, I’ve really started doing more, more and more workshops and sessions with groups of women and The most fascinating thing that I found that I didn’t expect is the pure inspiration and positive motivation that comes from these women after those types of workshops because of the way that they suddenly stop blaming themselves.
They see that there are certain things out there that are not, uh, I don’t know. I mean, you could call it, it’s, it’s unfair, right? Maybe labelling it, but that are just different, right, for, for men and women, for example, but they really stop blaming themselves and take it into their own hands and go like, right, it’s not me, it’s not my fault. And here’s a tool that I can use. So it’s exactly the kind of like inertia overcome. I might be provocative and say, it’s not me, yes, but it is you, if we don’t decide to make the choice to take the power, right?
And I, I know that’s not an easy one because it’s very different for everybody else. But I think, fortunately or unfortunately in this journey, it does start with us, right? Yeah, 100%. And what do you observe when you see, as you said, it’s quite inspiring when all the, when, when you work with groups of women. What do you find most inspiring in those contexts? I think for me it’s, it’s giving that positive energy back to sometimes people who, um, I wouldn’t say stuck in a rut, but people who really struggled with this and thought this is difficult and especially if it’s male dominated environments, you could be the only one.
And being the only one is super exhausting. So just having like a space of going, hey, I’ve experienced the same. It’s not me. It’s, well, you know, not normalising. Yeah, that’s just, um, I’m not alone. Exactly. That, that element and also it’s, it’s science-based. There are reasons for it. And here’s a great way of doing it instantly in a different way. Like that type of thing I, I found very unlocking. Within like an hour or something, you’ve completely shifted, at least momentarily, maybe for the next week, someone’s mindset and someone’s motivation. Yeah.
And so, what would you recommend? For some, maybe, maybe a woman who might be feeling they can’t be as assertive as they need to be, they don’t have the power. What is the first thing we should start thinking about? I loved how you said that comment that you received triggered you into thinking, hey, you know. Um, maybe I, I, I should actually work on this. But what, what do you think could be something, the starting point for us to reflect on? Because I think with this one, it’s about choice.
It’s not just jumping into doing, but there might be one or two things for us to think about so that we actually then make a choice. Mm. I think it is really about sometimes it’s it becomes more obvious. I’ve I’ve noticed because I spoke to a couple of women to really understand when is the trigger point for other people, and it, it can really easily happen when you’re further in your career. It doesn’t always happen in the very first instance when you come out of uni and you you get into those environments.
You don’t even think about it in the first. But then there comes a point where you see your peers, male peers advance much faster. They might be like literally in the in the role ahead of like one step up or two rolls up or they start making a company and you go like, how did that happen? Like, I don’t think I have like any difference in terms of knowledge, skill or talent or potential, but how did they get there? And that’s where the investigations and the questioning starts.
And I would say like at a point where you start having self-doubts of like, am I just not good enough? Like that’s the point where you should start thinking. Actually there’s something else here like a systemic issue and have I tackled that for myself like have I actually thought about how I communicate? What can I do there? That that I think is the biggest observation when you see others suddenly accelerate at a different speed. Yeah, and I think what I’m hearing you say is power is out there.
I’m hearing you say assertiveness potentially is a choice. I’m hearing you say, You know, really understand what are your issues, what are systemic issues. Um, and I’m also hearing you say, maybe I’m putting this on you, but I, I really feel we all have to watch out not to slip into victim mode. And I think if we think about the fact that power isn’t given, it’s taken, that really gives me the strength not to slip into victim mode. Mm. Yeah, that’s absolutely correct. And, and really, really important and all of that.
I, uh, one thing that I have always done, um, as, as a studied engineer, I like to look at things analytically. And that’s why when I looked at this element around power, it like the penny drop, because like, when you look at it analytically, you can also start analysing like How can I shift it? What can I do? And then this, this thing outside of you, not, not part of you. And then you can do something about it. And it feels empowering. And like you say, it’s a, it’s not being the victim, it’s being the detective and being the person’s like, what can I do about it?
I want to do something. Exactly. Exactly. Because I think if you take the power. That’s when your assertiveness really emerges. So, Christina, just like with our previous podcast, what I’d love to do is to ask you, um, for us when we post this, to make a few recommendations on either things people can read and watch. But if they want to find out more about the work that you do around assertiveness for women and particularly in tech, where, where do they go? Yeah, so I’ve, um, I’ve got a website as well.
I said, sorry, I should pronounce this correctly, assertion Street.com. And there you can find an overview. First, you can read more about me, but more importantly, you find an overview of the programmes that I run. So I have a six week. An online training programme plus coaching where I help women like in the manager um positions to advance into leadership and then I also run workshops and um webinars for organisations and groups of women. You can also find my blog there in the newsletter, so lots of resources um to get onto that journey of becoming more assertive and taking the power.
Yeah, just take it. It’s not given, and we all can break some of those invisible rules of power if we understand them, right? And we understand ourselves and make the choice to be assertive. So, Christina, thank you very much once again. And yeah, I look forward to actually having a look at your website now as well, and reading some of your posts. Thank you, Annaie. Take care. Pleasure. Take care.
