Transcript
Hello everyone, I’m really happy that I’m joined by Sarah today to discuss an interesting topic which is all around, it might seem very obvious, but it’s actually maybe not that obvious, or maybe it is. I don’t know, but anyway, it’s um whether the leadership is really that hard. Is it harder now, harder than before, or are we just all making it too difficult? Anyway, before we get going, Sarah, would you like to introduce yourself to everyone? Oh, well, thanks very much for inviting me today. Um, so a little bit about me, I’ve been working in HR now for well over 20 years.
Um, I’ve held different senior leadership roles across, uh, companies, across different industries, um, different size companies. Um, I’ve been a, a leader myself, um, across global teams, and I’ve also worked with an awful lot of leaders. So it’s definitely a very relevant topic, and I think there’s plenty to talk about, um, particularly whether things are actually more difficult now, um, or whether we’re actually, we’re just making it harder. Exactly, and I think it seems as if we all sometimes forget the basics and maybe that’s why things have become more difficult or they just feel more difficult, or maybe because the environment is more complex.
We try and go for the more difficult things to solve instead of just grounding ourselves in the basics of leadership and great people management. So what would you say are in your view and in your experience with all those leaders you’ve worked with, what would you say are some of the real foundational leadership basics? I think a lot of it is around people skills, to be honest, and I think that’s maybe why people feel that it’s harder and more challenging and actually leaders are more under the spotlight at the moment because I think if you think about the context that everybody’s operating in and most businesses are operating in, it’s a lot more challenging.
It’s complicated. It’s unfamiliar, it’s uncertain. And I think also in terms of what people expect of their leaders now, it’s actually very tricky, and people want to have that sense of belonging, have that sense of connection. They expect leaders to be able to provide that. So I think whilst they’re not necessarily new skills, or actually it’s not necessarily Any things that are different. I actually think some of these skills now are becoming more critical and more valued, and maybe in the past some of the leaders were able to get away with not really using them as much or there was different forms of success and metrics that people actually used to value and say what was a successful leader and what wasn’t, so.
I think some of the things that sort of come into my mind is, if you look at the workforce, but the workforce has really changed, so workforces are a lot more diverse now. People work in lots of different ways. So as a leader, you haven’t necessarily got everybody in the office. Example, now the 5 days a week that it used to be. So actually some of the things that you’re needing to do more is really encourage that sense of collaboration where you’ve got that diversity, you’ve got a real mixture of different cultures, nationalities, points of view.
That means that people are going to think a bit differently, that can generate conflict. So some of the things leaders need to do then is to be able to navigate that, um, and help make sure that the environment enables everybody to flourish and be successful. But it is more complex because there’s different points of view coming in now, um, and you’re having to actually, I think challenge and think a little bit harder as to how you get that sense of connected team and still make sure everybody understands what it is that you need to do with the business and what success looks like.
So what would you say are those skills? I mean, and and I don’t just want to use empty buzzwords here because it’s easy to do, but what I’m hearing is great communication. So really being able to communicate with the team, to hear what they’re saying, not only, you know, listen to them, have a conversation, so there’s something in communication, but not just the usual old one way communication, right? Different people have different expectations, but what are some of the other skills. I think things like empathy, um, you look at during COVID, people had to really kind of connect and there were so many different things and you’ve got that blurring of work and home.
So empathy really came through as something that’s very strong. I think actually even things like vulnerability. Now sometimes that’s always become one that I think people would perhaps shy away from in the past and think, well, you’re a leader, should you be vulnerable? Is that the right thing? Um, and you look at people like say Brene Brown, for example, and she talks about the power of vulnerability. There’s a very different slant on the impact that that can have. I think other things as well are things like kindness, caring, as well as communication.
You still need some of the other skills such as your critical thinking. You need your adaptability, you need your resilience. But that aspect of probably more on the people side and a term that I really don’t like that people often coin is soft skills, so those interpersonal skills, and I think calling things like soft skills, I don’t think that’s relevant or helpful and I think it quite devalues those skills there. But for me there’s a whole mixture and it’s probably quite easy to do a whole laundry list, but I do think some of the Challenges that leaders are facing now, um, with what’s required to be successful.
I do think grounding in communication, collaboration, the vulnerability aspect, empathy, um, kindness, I think they are really, really key, and I think people don’t shy away, maybe as much as they used to, uh, from really seeing the value in them and showing appreciation. And showing really the impact that they can have, um, I think you really do have to have that because you just don’t know what’s gonna hit, do you? Businesses now, you know, are faced with all sorts of different things, um, in the world, and anything can happen.
So you’ve got to be able to think ground yourself in those core skills, uh, and engage people in what they’re doing, um, and also keep the best people, um, as well as develop them. But I, but don’t you think you, you made the point there that Traditionally these would be viewed as soft skills, etc. but they’re actually the ones that are much harder, it’s much easier to learn about great project management or um you know, it’s easy to run a programme for leaders on, um, you know, innovation or maybe not that easy, but You know, growth or sales and you know, all the, the, I think we don’t want to talk about soft versus hard skills, but I think these are really difficult ones and like quite rightly, as you say, maybe people are more open to put their toe in the water, but I do think they’re they require courage.
I think they do, and I think they’re tough because they’re not easily measured. There’s not necessarily like an easy playbook or rulebook that you can pick up and teach. But I think that’s what often makes the difference of people being great leaders and being effective leaders and the sort of leaders that inspire you, they role model. And I do think courage really comes into that quite a bit. Um, it’s the courage to be vulnerable and leaders don’t always have to have all the answers either, but you’ve got to have the courage.
To sort of show that, but I think actually putting that into a course and documenting that some of that stuff is is quite hard. It doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to do, but I think that’s perhaps why people might shy away really, um, and tend to go to, you know, perhaps the other ones that become more of a tick box and they’re more easy, um, to work through. But I think that these require time. That’s the other thing I think for Some of the skills that we’ve mentioned there around, you know, setting targets, setting smart objectives, setting KPIs, OKRs, and so on.
I think those are They do take time, but to really build, to show vulnerability, to have courage, to be courageous, to really communicate in a meaningful way. You can’t do that in, OK, I’m going to take 30 minutes now to be meaningful. I’ve got my slot in my diary, which I meaningful slot slot. take time and actually also a bit of life experience. So if you think of the leaders, and I don’t know how we how we do that, but some of these skills just come through having been through those tough experiences as well.
But in essence it takes time, time to build trust, can’t just walk into a meeting and go, OK, I’m going to be vulnerable now. I think that’s true, and I think trust does come at the root of a lot of things actually. Without trust, it’s really hard, um, to do a lot of things. I think, I do think there’s that life experience like you say, but I think as well you need good role models and, and sometimes that can also be the harder thing where, you know, you see the value of that, but if you’re not seeing maybe other leaders around you doing that, then that almost becomes a little bit of a barrier as well.
Or sometimes people will say, oh well, you know, you should be more this and you should be more that. And particularly for a new leader, you’re trying to find your feet, you’re wanting to make an impact. You’ve got all these different things and Let’s be honest, people are very quick to judge leaders. We all think that we could probably have done it a bit better or a bit differently, and it is, that’s where it becomes quite tough with all those different things that you have to do.
And I think that’s where you need to have your clear identity. But I also do think one of the key things is being surrounded by other good role models in those leaders that that show that actually that is the right thing to do and the organisation then really values that because sometimes that’s where you get like a mixture. But also, isn’t it? It’s leadership from the top, I think to your point, I think it’s role modelling, and it’s all this stuff we know, but why do you think people don’t do it?
I think in the, yeah, I think in the midst of it, I think people are so driven, particularly leaders by what they have to get done, and I think that’s still quite a sort of key measure that people will look at there. And there’s all the different juggling and I think. Yeah, my numbers and then I’ll do the other stuff. And it’s that general busyness, isn’t it that that you sort of feel and I think probably where those other things maybe are a bit harder, they take a bit more courage.
You’re not quite sure the reaction you’re always gonna get either. Um, perhaps that’s also that choice that that leaders do make. Um, but I think a lot of those skills, as I say, are things that good leaders have, have always had. I just think now they’re probably things that have gone from being And the nice to have and people thinking like, oh that was a nice leader you know now it becomes well actually they’re really critical because to be successful I think it’s quite hard if you don’t have a lot of those there.
So there’s almost that push really external push I would say, right, the environment, the macro environment, etc. right, that that really pushes for all of that. Exactly. So, but if you, I suppose going back to your first question, is it hard? Do we make it hard, you know, I guess I think leadership can be really rewarding as well. I think it’s hard. I think it’s hard. I think to do it really well if we have to be honest. I think the more you and again, I can’t remember if we were prepping with this comment or whether we’d already said it, but it’s like a muscle, isn’t it?
The more you do it, the easier it becomes, but to build a muscle is not easy. And I think what is harder. Is the external environment that’s changed? I think since COVID, um, you know, we can’t hang everything off COVID, but I think if we just look at the world in general, it requires a very different type of lead where those things that you’ve said are really important, empathy, etc. and Um, yeah, I think it’s, it’s just, what I find really interesting is also your other point, remote leadership, right?
So I I think I read it or did I listen to a podcast, but when you’re on a remote call, well, like we are now on teams or interacting with your teams. Um, it’s exhausting because you, you can’t really process and read someone else’s, what, what are they really feeling, right? Because I think that there’s a slight delay, etc. etc. and so it’s almost kind of do we have to have virtual leadership skills, in-person leadership skills, you know, as a dimension, that’s an interesting thought as well, right, because how do you establish an authentic connection virtually?
I think it is. I think that’s that adaptability, isn’t it? You know, when you think of that overarching one, because you are having to, you know, lead teams that have a mixture. So some people are fully remote, some people are hybrid, some people are in the office, um, people have different needs. So you’ve got all of that going on. Um, so I think Helping and enabling leaders to adapt and understand that it isn’t that one size fits all and that naturally with that, then people think, well, that becomes harder, so I’ve got to do things in different ways.
Um, but going back to COVID, actually, I think COVID was quite interesting because A lot of the time people sort of talk about it as being tough and hard, and it really was, but I do think it also opened up opportunities for innovation because there was also no playbook, so that skill set for those leaders who were pretty resilient, if they had that adaptability and could sort of navigate through things that were quite unfamiliar, there was also a lot of positive opportunity. We were almost like the rains and shackles are off because you can try things in, in different ways.
And I think that’s also a good story, um, and helps those leaders then continue, um, to be successful, um, and also to sort of pave that path. So I think you have to be careful when you talk about challenge because sometimes that makes things, you almost make it hard by approaching it in that way. And I think sometimes you do have to sort of catch yourself a little bit. and break it down because leaders are still leaders. So for me, leaders are there to enable their teams to be as successful as they can be and make sure that the businesses and the roles that they’re in that they deliver that success.
And most of the time they’re doing that through people. I don’t think that’s necessarily changed that dramatically. So, yeah, essentially, I mean, I think yes there are now different needs and expectations, but at the core I think if we come back, people want to be respected. They want to trust and be trusted. They want to feel part of something that’s bigger than themselves, and yes, we have generational differences and, you know, all the other differences that we can focus on, but if I think if we can focus on the fact that we’re all human.
At its core that makes uh that makes a huge difference, but you know, I didn’t prepare you for this question, but I’m just looking at our time we have a few minutes, so. I was thinking as I was sitting, oh, I have to ask you this question, what would I answer, but I don’t know, so I’m going to ask you first. Oh good. So, what was the best piece of advice you’ve ever received on being a leader? You know, it is a difficult one. I think the thing that actually made me a better leader was a manager at the time encouraging me to be vulnerable.
And actually that’s, I found that. What did they say to you? So I think they were saying that people want to see more of me as me, and I think in my head, yeah, I was going in thinking, well, a leader needs to be, you know, really in control, show that there’s that way forward, be strong. Yeah, absolutely, and I think particularly with some of the roles that I’ve done, there are some difficult decisions that impact people. So actually having that advice, it almost felt quite conflicting, but there was definitely that strong piece around actually people will connect more with you if you do show that vulnerability.
I was like. So I remember trying it and actually it felt really uncomfortable, um, but the outcome that I got from it, and I had a great team anyway, but it just opened up people then feeling in the team like they could speak up, they could share that, and it brought us closer together and it’s not. Thing that I did all the time, but there was critical points where actually just showing that vulnerability of I don’t really know, or this is really tough. I think for me that changed me quite a lot as a leader and made me have a lot more impact and it pushed me out of my comfort zone as well.
So being vulnerable, I would always recommend and say to people it’s not an easy thing to do, but I do think the impact of that really does make a difference. So if I can build on that and then my time to say goodbye is I would say exactly that and The advice I got was just don’t think so much. Just try it, just do it. Listen, you know, and like you said there, you’ll discover by trying different things, whether it’s vulnerability or just authentically being yourself, just don’t overthink it.
Obviously don’t think too little because that’s also not good. I’m not saying that, but it’s just don’t live in your head, maybe, maybe live a little bit more in your heart when it comes to leadership. It is because look, there’s no definition of, of a perfect leader because the context that you’re in changes. The people that you’re leading, they change. But I think you’re also right. I think sometimes. We can complicate it, and we talked at the beginning about this being such a big topic, and you can always talk about it.
Everyone talks about skills at the moment, things that you should and shouldn’t do, and you almost talk yourself out of it. So I do think there is that part where you know what works. There are 4 things that have that impact, and sometimes you just have to do it, and you know what, if it doesn’t work, sometimes that’s what you have the greatest thing you get the feedback right? yeah, hopefully. So listen, Sarah, thank you very much for your time. I look forward to talking to you again, and I think if I have to summarise, what are we saying?
We’re, we’re saying it’s harder and it’s not, but at the core, it’s all about, it becomes easier if you could just be yourself and more authentic and vulnerable. Um, and that’s when people will really trust you. Absolutely. And remember, you know, it’s those people skills, they’re so important and there’s so much that can actually be done through engaging, motivating, um, and just being open and clear and transparent. So Sarah, I wish you a lovely rest of your week and I look forward to talking to you again.
Oh, thank you for having me. Pleasure.
