Transcript
Hello, everyone. I’m really happy today after a little while to connect again with Aurere. And we’ve been longtime friends. We’ve met in person many times, hosted you on Purple Beach, um, when we still had our in-person events pre-pandemic. So very, very welcome, Aurette. Thank you very much, Annami. It’s my pleasure to be your guest here in this beautiful podcast. Thank you. Um, so yeah, we originally said we were going to discuss because through a mutual friend of ours, I heard that you published a book, a book of poetry, but it’s your, it’s a second one that you’ve published.
And so I said, hey, we need to talk about it. Now, it’s in Hebrew, but I still think it’s interesting to share with us a little bit about what inspires you and what, what are the subjects. Right. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, yes, I haven’t told you about this because it’s in Hebrew, it’s a poetry book. I write for over 20 years, even more, since 2000, and I usually write to myself in moments of despair, moments of sadness, moments of loss, uh, and in the pandemic, when the corona time, when suddenly we have time to realise, you know, what it is that we would love to pursue to do, which we haven’t done for a while, we always postpone it.
And I decided to sit down and just write them in a word document clearly and start working on them. And, and what more, and as I’m telling you the story, and that was the first, uh, poetry book called uh Loving B minor Loving B minor, which is quite sad. B minor is a sad key. Uh, and I wish, I, I wish I could read to you some of the poems, but, uh, very happily, uh, I’m going to say that we are going to pick up some of those poems from this book and the second book and translate it into English, uh, in the summer.
So there’ll be a third book. And then after I, I got, I got in love with the idea and then I just published this book which is called um Poems in C major. So it’s a better case. C major is a much happier mode, major mode. Um, and this is the second one, and it’s, it’s very much of exposure of, of my inner life, my love life. Uh, and there’s a whole chapter here about music. So I write about, I write to composers that I’ve never met I’ve never encountered, but I love and wish to meet Bach and Chopin and Liszt and Beethoven and Gershwin and Debussy, and I just write to them some thoughts and some questions unanswered questions, uh, that I have for many years to them.
And Tom, I’m sitting and listening to you, both of them have a musical title. Um, how would we, how would we frankly. Yeah, I mean, what’s the difference between a poem and lyrics for a song? Cause I mean, if I’m, I’m just immediately starting to think, well, if you’re, if you’re, you are such a great musician, surely we can take the poems and make them into lyrics, or are they completely different? Well, great question, great question. So, uh, let me start from the end. The two, composers, uh, received the book and they composed beautiful lyric, uh, which is already going on the media now, and I’ll be happy to send you some of those.
They, they composed the music towards, uh, this, uh, this poem. So this was very meaningful to me that they picked it up and made it a song rather than just a written poem. But usually in the lyrics, uh, it’s, it’s very much. Um, you know, depending on the structure, you have to have a structure. So you mainly have, uh, the stenza and then you have the, the actual part that repeats itself. It’s, it’s different, and the architecture of the composition is more important. When you write a free poem, there are no many rules.
It can be longer, it could be short, it can be even two, you know, two lines, um. You know, uh, a good poem could be only, you know, 6 words sometimes. And you can’t do a song from 6 words. I mean, you can, but it might not be so good, not be so interesting. But I must say it is also interesting that they picked it up and did that with your poems. So I’m wondering. Do your poems have a hidden musicality, maybe, you know what I’m saying? Even irrespective of the fact that they’re, you know, a little bit, you know, that they, that they’re not lyrics, right?
I agree, I agree. I think they do because I love repeated uh rhymes and repeated rows of, uh, you know, if you take one row that repeats itself in every beginning of a stanza, that’s something that I love. I love the sound of it. I love the rhymes, I love the, the connectivity and, and the feeling of a structure. I don’t do it for this, but it’s natural coming out for me. It’s not a free form for me. I don’t believe in free form. A very good question, yes.
But I think the other thing we said we were gonna talk about your poetry and the books today. And we also said, you, you send me a WhatsApp voice message and said, well, maybe we should talk again about the work that you’re doing at the Technicon, because that’s also bringing out, uh, you know, the right wing, uh, not the right wing, the right brain, the left brain, um, all of it together, right? And so the creativity and the more constructive. And so tell us a little bit about what you’re doing at the Technicon.
Yeah, the Technion is Israel highest University for science and engineering. Uh, it’s ranked about one of the most, uh, prestigious universities for science in the world, and I love it here. Actually, I’m sitting right now in my office at the Tech Neon. Uh, and behind me is something that I will speak about. It’s not just by coincidence, but in, um, a year and a half ago, I received an appointment by, uh, by the technion, which is called Artist in Residence, Artist in Residence. And this is a very new position.
I was the first to receive it. And it’s something. Interesting because you can see that um in every major university nowadays, especially those universities which are not artistic connected but more scientific uh oriented, they have now a place, a position for artists to come along the campus and affect the campus, create something. And this is a trend that I think it’s not just something that is going to pass very quickly on the opposite. I think we have to listen to the music behind it. And I think universities realise that artists and musicians, um, they’re not only good to be on campus, but they’re valuable and essential.
So art is not something that is nice to have, but rather must have. It’s a totally different approach, and I mean, that’s number one. I think a couple of years ago, um, and you’re making me think now, I read a book and I’m trying to remember what it was called, but it spoke about. Silicon Valley and how in Silicon Valley for a long time, what was valued was not art and humanities, right? In terms of how we think about things and how we innovate, but actually, everything logical was valued.
And I think what was very quickly over the last, and this is pre-pandemic, right? What was, and I wish I could remember the book, I see the cover. It’s a white book with gold flecks on it. But I think what was very quickly realised was the importance of humanities of the arts in actually helping us to truly um develop meaningful products, innovate, be really creative, do business. Exactly, exactly. It’s not just a metaphor inspiration as we used to regard arts and music. Uh, it’s not something that we just to have like a one hour off to, to relax and have inspiration.
No, it’s really a tool, a skill, a way of thinking, a way of, uh, really, uh, treating the process of working on, on your business, on your research, on your academic, uh, ideas, um, and this collaboration between scientists and artists is Something new, but it, it’s so good that it became something to to keep going and after this year that was finished, they asked me to stay and to be uh really responsible on artistic and scientific projects that I have interdisciplinary collaborations. And tell me, tell me what you do, what does a week look like for the days that you’re there, right?
So I’ll tell, I’ll tell you exactly why I’m here and what’s behind me. Uh, so when I received the position, I remember they shook my hand, and it was 33th of July 2022, and they said, we’ll meet you in October when the school year starts. Uh, in Israel, everything starts a bit later, uh, in October, not September. And I said, no, uh, thank you very much, but you’re going to see me tomorrow. And I said, No wait tomorrow. We don’t, we don’t have a room for you. We don’t have an office for you.
We are not going to pay for you in July and August and September, the payment will start in October. And I said, I don’t, I don’t mind. I don’t need an office. I don’t need payment. I need to meet all the major scientists that you have because my goal, my wish, my vision is to create a series that will be, um, that will have scientists and artists and musicians all come together, sit together. I discussed relevant issues, relevant dilemmas, relevant challenges that are really meaningful to both disciplines.
And I’ll give you an example soon, but just to make uh this nice, uh, shot on this, what I, what I created is a series called Music Science and Inspiration. Uh, we have 5 sessions a year on the during the school year. Uh, it’s open to everyone. This is also another message before we start. It’s not just for researchers, it’s not just for students, it’s for everyone, for, for employees, for researchers, for students, for the main public, uh, and we open our gates for, you know, in a language that can be very accessible for everyone, and, uh, and I really brought, uh, dozens of researchers, uh, this is the 2nd year already, we are full of We have hundreds and hundreds of uh uh of subscribers.
It’s free. It’s no charge. We open our gates for everyone. But the main thing is not how many people are coming, but really what we’re doing. So I ask, for example, two prize, uh, Nobel laureates, Professor Aaron Chihanover and Professor Danny Sherman, who are Nobel Prize winners, uh, to come along and join us. for example, and we speak about subjects such as AI in science and AI in music. We’ll dive into this in a second, or for example, another really relevant um subject nowadays is personalization in art, music, and science, you know, in medicine, because, you know, we know how, you know, medical issues are going to be governed by personalization.
You’re not going to get Uh, a tablet if you have a headache in 5 years’ time, that I will take or your spouse will take, you will have special, you’ll have a special tablet is that is characterised for your needs, for your vitamins, for your body, for your age, for your gender. Yes, we are already there. Is it economic or not? This is a different question. Is it more but we’re there. Exactly, we are there. So imagine this platform of an hour and a half where we discuss issues that are relevant for both.
Um, and also music, personalised music, you know, um, we all can control the music that we play, the music we prefer, the, the interpretation that we want. Um, but there are also some risks about it. We’ll talk about the risk as well. But the interesting stuff is 90 minutes where we do 10 minutes of talk and then 5 minutes of performance. So it’s always a combination of live dancer, live jazz player, live, uh, team, and also what I realised, which is something really fascinating, and we do research about it now, that 60% of the students and researchers at the techneon are playing.
And instruments. This is interesting, isn’t it? Mhm. Yeah, we didn’t know the amount, we didn’t know the percentage. So they have affiliation to music, but they didn’t want to share it or they’re not so proud. I think they’re not so good, they’re just amateurs, but I don’t mind if this is a person who is amateur or professional, obviously it’s not professional, but 60% who have affiliation to art. That’s a lot. That means a lot. That means that there is so much connecting between the two. Right. And I think number one, connectivity enemy is the way that we think because it’s a lot about the process, you know, having a good research is not about just the results.
You do research, you don’t know the results. Yeah, you might fail, you might not succeed, uh, you leave your bacteria for days to see what will happen. You want something to happen, but it doesn’t always, you know, obey to your watches. And same for music, you know me for many years, you know, how many time we practise and practise and practise and hours of preparation, then you go on stage for one shot, and you fail, you, you don’t succeed, different reasons. So the process is really important, not just the result.
It’s a different way of thinking. It’s a lot of giving, less, there is no really um correlation between how much you do and how much you receive. But let’s talk about AI because and failing, because we were having a conversation recently about the fact that you can ask AI to write me a song, compose me, you know, in the style of this and that person, and to a point, What does that do to the creative process that you’re speaking about that there and Failure, right? Because I’m sure AI can fail, but I also think it’s becomes very manufactured almost, the creative process, and that’s maybe some of the risks also.
You, you’re so into the point. It’s amazing as if you read all the articles and books lately about AI and music. So you touched it. Uh, first of all, it’s scary. Let’s admit it’s scary because anyone soon. Who never had a piano lesson, actually, um, compose music that you can hear anywhere and it’s scary because what about me who sit for 8 hours a day in my childhood and 4 hours a day in practising, working so hard, learning so much about music, and here you are. Or you can just write for AI soon.
uh, for example, IA and music. We have a lot of sites that you can go and say, please write me music in the style of bossa Nova and Chopin, 3 minutes long with clarinet and violin and piano. Make it nice and cosy. And you’re not getting good results yet, because we are much behind. Music is much behind, you know, visual arts in AI. And, uh, you know, you can go to Chat GPT and ask uh um you know, to get a beautiful photo, a beautiful drawing, a great article, great poem, and you will get it beautifully.
Music is behind because it’s a matter of time. It’s an art in time. We’re yet not there, but we will be there. We will be there. What does it mean about me as a performer? Will people need me? What does it mean about you as a listener? Will you go and listen to music produced by AI and enjoy it? Or will you know? But what if you don’t know, right? OK. So again, what about you don’t know? What about performance? Soon AI will perform the music and you will clap.
Uh, it’s very, very scary. What about the rights? What about the right, yeah. Because AI is taking all his ideas. It’s not so creative. It’s taking his ideas from things that are already in the net. So if you’re taking my, you know, my 1% and, and your, you know, and the Beethoven and Mr. Mozart, and you bring your own, it’s not really your own. Are you creative? And it brings along another question that is relevant to anyone who listens to us. What is creativity? We might need to define the word creativity from scratch. Yeah.
Well, that’s an interesting one, right? If we give it a go. So I think innovation, I would define as the marriage of creativity and pragmatism. So if you are saying we might have to redefine what innovation, what creativity means, maybe if creativity needs to be redefined, we need to redefine innovation. Because if innovation is a marriage of pragmatism and creativity, You know, um, I’m sure AI can be both pragmatic and creative. What happens to innovation? Is, what happens to our thinking, right? Totally right. So we’ll have to start really questioning and giving doubt of how we define things that were so clear to us until today.
And also we, we, I think that we realised that AI still doesn’t have passion. It doesn’t have strong will. It doesn’t have intention. When you do something with intention and wish and will and passion, you bring your own soul into it. AI does do wonderful things, but no soul, no intention, no real understanding. Yeah. And I think that’s an interesting one, right? Because at its core, AI is still just about pattern recognition. But having said that, how does this make you feel? Because I think if we have this conversation, we can also choose to be fearful, or we can say how exciting that we’re living in a time where we get to define the boundaries of creativity.
And innovation. We’re not victims in all of this, because I think one mindset is, it’s happening to us, but I think another mindset would be is how do we, how do we become part to your point, right? What you’re doing there? How do you become part of the conversation and part of creating something that is different to what has ever come before? I’m listening to you and I realised that I should bring you here because you’re bringing, you know, so exact definitions of the crucial questions. I really must bring you over here and you will do it soon.
I hope. Yes, yes, it’ll be amazing because we just had a session on that on, you know, the risks and the fears one has from the AI implications. And number one, yes, we are fearful. We are fearful about our professions about, about our Uh, future about our listeners, you know, soon enough, uh, most concerts will be in, not in Zoom, but you will be able to watch any great singer that you love, with billions, and you will feel, uh, a three dimensional experience. You will feel as if you’re sitting in the hall or if you’re sitting in a beautiful grass and you will enjoy the people around you will always feel as if you’re touching them.
You did, you would not want to necessarily leave London and and go. Elsewhere to to hear it. It’s scary. But, but I think what we, you touched here that we are going into an era of co-creativity, co-creativity, meaning that we are about to enter a session now of how am I to use AI in a collaborative way or other people like in Wikipedia that everyone is contributing to the exponential growth of knowledge. I think there will be co-compositions. So one composition will be with and Annami in AI and other people who are sitting in Japan and Korea.
And that’s exciting, right? Exciting. You have to lose or to give in the exclusivity that you want to have. The ego, yes, exclusivity means ego. It’s my piece, it’s my composition, it’s my performance. No, it’s not going to be only yours, it’s going to be collaborative creativity process. I think that’s what we have to be open-minded for the next future. But speaking about open-minded, if we go into fear, we all know what happens to our brain, it shuts down, and we will lose the ability to open-minded, go into this creativity.
So there is some work we need to do, as you said there. You know, work around the ego, work around fear, and it’s not human nature to simply easily go, OK, I’m going to let go. And just see what comes and what can be, because we don’t know. And if you look at the media, I really blame the media for pushing all the negative, scary stories, because that’s what sells the news, versus saying, let, let’s think about the possibility that can truly exist in terms of, like we said, redefining creativity, redefining innovation.
I agree, I agree. Media loves dramas. They love breaking news. They love fear. I think we are driven to do, to, to act by fear more than success. It’s very scary sentence, right? You act faster when you’re fearful, not when you’re so eager to succeed. But only for a quick and short period of time. You cannot sustain for long periods of time acting quickly in fear. That that completely destroys you, right? I agree. And I think we are now in the short period of time of acting out of fear, and so we’ll have to have the right people to enable us to see the great advantages that are open-minded for us and actually to, to grab the opportunity.
Because if I can use AI to compose faster, or to write my composition faster, because the AI enabled you to write music. Um, and transpose it to so many different, um, for example, so many different orchestration, possibilities and modes. Something that would have taken me years to write, you know, if I write a piano sonata and you ask me to read, it’s lovely. Can you make it for an orchestra? It will take me hours to diverse to, to recompose it. Or to transcribe it, that’s the word to transcribe it into an orchestral score.
But AI could do it in a split second and you will enjoy it. So we have to see those advantages and not be so fearful, but we also have to have guidance. We don’t have enough guidance. That I agree with. I think there is at the moment, um. Yeah, I think humans like a little bit of a framework. And I think, you know, there, there’s nothing wrong with freedom within a framework. And I think what we maybe need to think about is, just as we need to think about redefining some concepts, what is the framework within which we redefine these concepts, right?
Um, and I think that’s anyway, so we can talk for hours, but I, I want to ask you one last question, which is, um, Yeah, what, what is, what makes you most excited? What you, what inspires you most in a very, in a new way to think about the possibility of what is being unlocked. In the AR you mean or in general? Yeah, in in the AI. Um, I tell you something interesting. What excites me is the possibilities of performing with the tools of AI, which is not yet explored, which is not yet, not just composition, because composition is, you know, the Google is working and Apple is working on it and so many other companies, it will get, we’ll get to it, get to it.
But what happens to the performing arts world, which I’m so involved in because The performing arts world is something that connects people one on one. You go out of your home today to connect to people, to see live performances. And for me, this is a very interesting, uh, and passionate subject. How will I make people still leave home to listen. Uh, to me, but not ignoring the AI role. Maybe I will have to collaborate with AI, bring the machine on stage, react machine and bring people outside still to, to connect.
I think there is nothing yet substitute to connectivity, to collaboration, to warmth, to body to body, soul to soul, uh, uh, you know, and, and tears to tears. Uh, Zoom is great and enables now to have this podcast. But when we meet, we are better in small talk, we are better in a glass of wine, we are better in hugging. I can’t let this go yet. Not yet. And as you’re saying it there, I, I think I’m left with one last thought, right? So how do you, you said, Bring the machine on stage and so on.
But if it’s about true collaboration, maybe what we need to do in future is not only invite people to come and join, you know, you at a concert with your AI, but maybe as crazy as it sounds, individuals can come to the concert with their own AI. Wouldn’t that be interesting, right? Yes, I agree. I agree. We might like to bring something along with us. And you know, just a last quick thing, you know, I have Alexa. I’m sure you do have, I do. Yes, and I find that I’m, I’m angry with her and often.
Thank every or sometimes I even flattering her and, and, and you develop new relationship that you are thinking to yourself, OK, am I crazy? This is a machine. This is not a human being. Sometimes when I write to GPT and I, I, I’m apologising, I’m saying I’m sorry, I, I’m asking you for the tense time. Thank you for your patience. I’m becoming like I, I’m scared of myself. So we bring emotions with the machines. That’s another thing to to explore, right? In particular, it’s very interesting, right?
And I actually just as a last point, I recently started working with GBT Afrikaans. I said to, speak to me in Afrikaans, write me a poem, whatever. And I find working with it in my mother tongue was a very different experience to working with it in my second language. Um, and even that emotional connection was even much stronger, right? And I was like, that’s very strange, what’s happening, Mia. So yeah, the only last uh attribute or characteristic that the AI has better than human beings is patience.
Yeah, that’s not wrong. You’re right. Well, thank you so so much, um, again, as always for your time, and I do hope that we’ll see each other soon. Whether here or with you. And as always, just wishing you all of the very best, and I really look forward to hear more about this evolving journey that you’re on. Thank you so much. That was a pleasure and always so spontaneous, yet very deep and very authentic. Thank you, Annay. Thank you.
